Long Stem Planting

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Postby duane » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:48 pm

Shirley that is great news. I would like to add that it has been my experience that much of our landscape has changed dramatically over the years, even in my own brief lifetime.

Many of the original plants that were here have disappeared not necessarily because we have removed them but because we have changed the environment that they had adapted to.

In many parts of this country that has been caused by draining the landscape and desertifying the local environment.

There is some work around that suggests there is up to 15,000 seeds/m2 in some soils still exists and that the natural triggers such as rain, groundwater, fire, mycorrhizae etc etc that used to exist in a hololistic landscape, IF, we can recreate some of these conditions such as rehydrating the landscape, we will see some of these plants return.

That is why Peter's work is so important as it is a restorative process.

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Postby duane » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:03 pm

I believe that this topic of identifying our native plants is SO important that I am going to start a new thread.

If we can get feedback from various groups and individuals and institutions on this topic it would be great.

See the Dripstone Story thread to take up this discussion.

Shirley Henderson
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Long Stem PLanting plus Willows

Postby Shirley Henderson » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:52 am

I would like it known that in my view, although Long Stem Planting is a fantastic idea that works, I am aware that as Duane and Peter know to decide which plants go where and in what sequence has in the past been an evolutionaty process. As we do not have that time to wait, what ever works at the time is the best solution. If willows and weeds are the answer I fully support what Peter is doing and hope to get a chance to implement and try out some of his methods along the way. I also think Long stem Planting could solve many problems of cost, maintenance and survival rate when choosing natives or trying to re-establish local natives. It works really well but as Peter states sewing a kidney on to your ear does not mean it will function as it should. Selection of plants is key for each and every unique environment and the point I am trying to make is that combining ideas an trying out new things can lead to better relations and yet to be seen surprises.

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Postby duane » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:08 am

Here we all are wanting to replant natives to save the world.
I have just downloaded this from Science Daily.
The statistics in the first paragraph reflect the same % of habitat removal as we had had in this country. Once we had the Australian continent covered in huge tracts of rainforest and coniferous forests...only remnants now remain.

Science Daily — During the last glaciation, which ended about 10 000 years Before Present (BP), the Brazilian Atlantic forest extended over all the eastern side of the country, covering more than 1 200 000 km2, 15% of Brazil's territory. Now only 95 000 km2 of this natural habitat survives, just 8% of its initial extent.

It is still a large biodiversity reservoir in Brazil, second only to the Amazonian forest. On one hectare of Atlantic forest the biologists recorded over 450 different tree species. But deforestation and intensive farming methods make this tropical forest one of Earth's most seriously threatened ecosystems. In the states of São Paulo and Minas Gerais, regions where agriculture has developed strongly in recent years, the forest is largely fragmented, represented only as small blocks situated on the abrupt slopes which plunge down towards the Atlantic.

With the objective of analysing the changes that have taken place in this ecosystem over the Quaternary era, IRD researchers and counterparts from the University of São Paulo put together the results from three scientific disciplines (botany, palynology, genetics) applied to three species of the tree genus Podocarpus: P. sellowii, P. lambertii and P. brasiliensis. These tropical trees belong to the conifer family. They are good indicators of geographical evolution of the Atlantic forest with time, seeing that the Brazilian species are endemic to this natural habitat. Moreover, pollen grains from the genus Podocarpus have a typical small bladder-like morphology and stay intact for a long time in sediments. These two characteristics make them good candidates for palynological studies.

The team recorded and then collected available plant material from different sites where Atlantic forest stands are still present. This involved 26 sampling points spread over a rectangle 4000 km long by 500 km wide corresponding to the whole of the area of distribution of this ecosystem. They corresponded to 26 different populations of Podocarpus.

This first investigation stage allowed subsequent accurate genetic characterization of each population. In parallel, six sedimentary cores were taken at different latitudes where Atlantic forest still grows so that analysis could be made of the frequency of pollen grains belonging to the Podocarpus genus contained in the various samples collected.

The borehole sunk at Colônia in the state of São Paulo yielded a core showing that the frequency of these pollen grains fluctuated with time; the phases of expansion and regression of this taxon succeeded one another for periods of varying length. Evidence for a rise in frequency of Podocarpus pollen grains was found for periods of between 60 000 and 45 000 years BP, then between 29 000 and 21 000 years BP in the south of Brazil and between 16 000 and 15 000 years BP in the Nordeste region. These fluctuating rises which occurred during times of glaciation would correspond to phases of expansion of the Atlantic forest in these regions.

In order to test this hypothesis, the Franco-Brazilian team used techniques from molecular biology. For each of the 26 pre-selected populations, the researchers collected leaves of five individual trees of the Podocarpus genus from which they extracted DNA. Nucleotide sequence amplification was performed, then phylogenetic analysis. Comparison was made between that analysis and the level of genetic differentiation between each population of Podocarpus. The scientists thus succeeded in delimiting three large centres of original colonization distributed according to latitude.

The multidisciplinary approach also showed that the expansion of tropical conifer populations never occurred during interglacial periods, in contrast to what usually happened in our temperate latitudes. In the tropics, the populations of Podocarpus that make up the Atlantic forest in fact gained ground in glacial periods owing to an increase in humidity and a cooling of temperatures. At present, in the Nordeste region where a more arid climate prevails, this humid tropical forest occurs in the form of small isolated populations.

Nevertheless, it has not always been like that. In that part of the country, the study confirmed the notion that a dense rainforest developed at 15 000 years BP. In the space of about 10 years, its extremely rapid expansion, over an area twice the size of France, was made possible only by the presence of a mosaic of a multitude of patches of forest, now dispersed sparsely over this arid terrain. Predictions for climate changes for the next few decades envisage an increase in the duration and intensity of periods of drought in the intertropical regions, as in Nordeste. If this trend persists, the protection of such surviving areas of Brazil's Atlantic forest, these refugia, will become essential for the conservation of this ecosystem

Shirley Henderson
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Willows at Kew Seed Bank

Postby Shirley Henderson » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:34 am

Hi, Just a follow up of my previous posting about Kew gardens Seed Bank in England. I did write to them to see if they had Willow (Salix) seed in collection. Here is their reply

Dear Shirley,

Thank your for your enquiry to the Seedbank. At the moment we have 47 collections of Salix seeds from various countries. So far we have no Salix collections from Australia but we have partners actively collecting there so we may eventually have some. Your example is one of so many that illustrates that plants are the basis of ecosystems in which all animals, including humans, live, survive and grow. We feel that all plant species are worth conserving but for practical reasons we obviously have to prioritise our collections. The current project focuses on dryland species across the world and all seed producing UK species. We are providing technical advise and training to organisations in many countries to allow this method of ex situ conservation to be applied on a local basis.

Best Wishes,

Ruth Eastwood

Shirley Henderson
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Long stem planting

Postby Shirley Henderson » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:26 am

I am just rehashing this old topic as Brett has asked me about long stem planting and I thought others may be interested as well.
I have met Bill and his technique is amazing. He knows of Peter but cant get around the Willows as freinds topic yet. (so ignore the part about willows as probelms because we know they are very useful). Basically you grow your plants in tube pots in trays in full sun applying regular water. They grow as trees or shrubs to 1m tall. You have to give osmocote fertiliser including a scoop of the one with trace elements. You grow them like this for 6-12 months. The roots are air pruned at the bottom of the pot. Its important to use good tubestock pots with the inner lines going downwards to direct proper root growth. They end up with really long stems and a little leaf growth. Beacuse of the fertiliser in the pot and the amount applied they have fabulously strong roots systems. You then plant them very deep in the soil. You can use a pole or a special tool with hose attached. Remember that where there was a leaf a root or a branch can grow. You can plant them around almost the full metre deep just leaving about 10-20cm plant sticking out the top. When you plant them you fill the hole full of water and soil and that is it. No more maintenance and an excellent survival rate. You will have the toughest strongest fastest growing plants that you have ever seen. This method can be used on any plant that has tap roots such as trees and shrubs including fruit trees. Some nurseries will do the growing for you. Follow this link for more info.

http://www.australianplants.org/longstem.htm#The Solution

Kind regards Shirley ....Ill fill you in on my new property later as very busy at the monent.

orkut is safer
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is speciation essential--duane

Postby orkut is safer » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:35 am

[quote] If we dont know what the native species sequence is we cannot get the results Nature intended.
That is one of the main reasons why so much native planting fails to get off the mark.

hello duane--if we care to face some factual considerations, and then sensibly discount the accuracy of aboriginal-anecdote advice, i believe we discover that no 'Spiritist anthropology' bothers to delineate Nature as a speciated process.

This consideration might also care for NFS to be more correctly proposed as: "if you have a river, and if you have erosion then NSF will over a decade of time possibly re-establish an improved condition"

[see later for reasons why a minimal expectation is given for NSF outcomes regards total-land repair].

When we are dealing with a century of removal of nearly all basic vegetation,[your] "We have LOST forever those plants that may have been capable of restoring our degrading landscapes" where does the actual manpower come from to achieve large success.

[working farmers, hired-labour, individual and small community-groups alone??]


In the 1950's, and before the Permaculturists claimed the work of Keyline 'was their idea',
and consequently turned the grand idea whereby 98% of land is known to have contours, and this same land also receives rainfall, into a small-farm remedy only.

Unsurprisingly, self-taught consultancies "suddenly" knew best.

CSIRO and Keyline instead proposed:

(i) to produce soil, and (ii) to retain rainfall where it might be best employed.

You would be aware--that without these objectives--we observe that neither increased clearing, or large-scale land use that must replace nutrients each season is a realistic solution.

The Keyline-CSIRO groups not only were able to achieve up to a metre of extra soil (from NSW to South Australia), but they also
economically-positioned the farmers returns--deeper fields on site irrigated gave higher yields.


Regards natural speciation:


"The sudden appearance of new species and diversified orders of living organisms is wholly biologic, strictly natural.

There is nothing supernatural connected with these genetic mutations.

Although the evolution of vegetable life can be traced into animal life, and though there have been found graduated series of plants and animals which progressively lead up from the most simple to the most complex and advanced organisms, you will not be able to find such connecting links between the great divisions of the animal kingdom nor between the highest of the prehuman animal types and the dawn men of the human races.

These so-called "missing links" will forever remain missing, for the simple reason that they never existed.


There were many smaller plants, but their fossils are not found since they were usually destroyed by the still earlier appearing bacteria.

And today Greenland holds the remains of these early land plants beneath its mantle of ice..

Yeomans [Water for Every Farm], the Keyline group and CSIRO
presented the COMMON SENSE remedy--though once Sir Clunies Ross passed away--the consultancy-type theorist and the agri-chemical lobbies soon re-established the degradation game.
water for every farm--is possible

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Postby matto » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:16 pm

duane wrote:
In many parts of this country that has been caused by draining the landscape and desertifying the local environment.

There is some work around that suggests there is up to 15,000 seeds/m2 in some soils still exists .

Wow,thats quite the store house of seed. And on the keyline subject, Darren Doherty has found after a short time using the keyline plow that pastures are returning to native grasses that are still in the soil or are being blown in from outside sources. Either way the decompaction and aeration of the soils with this plow has allowed conditions to return that suit the native pastures. Same could also be said of trees and shrubs i would expect, and so NSF is trying to achieve these results and conditions.

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Re: Long Stem Planting

Postby damianoconnell » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:48 pm

I don't understand the apprehension with planting willows. Where there is an incised river or creek, negative pressure results. Willows can handle this situation perfectly being buried in sediment and mulch well up the trunk sprouting roots as it's buried. I've observed that once the rivers and creeks have been raised above the surrounding floodplain, then that creates a positive pressure in the ground and as a result willows don't do so well. They then seem vulnerable to rusts and dieback and lose all vigour and other plants take over.

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Re: Long Stem Planting

Postby Joe » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:46 am

I like the theory of long stem planting, so tried it with Tagasaste.

The first one I planted out, two thirds of its height, deep and filled the hole with sand and water. It looked healthy for a couple of days, then died, pretty much overnight.

The second one, I just planted in the bottom of a deep hole, but didn't fill the hole in. This one still died in the same manner as the first.

The soil here holds water very well, eg. you can dig a hole, fill it with water and it will hold that water for days, sometimes weeks. I wonder if maybe you need a soil that drains better, for long stem planting.

I wonder if Tagasaste is suitable for long stem planting. Has anyone had success with it?

Any helpful ideas?

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